Seriously--

[roxy]

I swear to gawd people, John wasn't *that* bad, for crying out loud! I'm sure he had buttloads of issues and made some really, really crappy decisions but he wasn't a murderous, drink-addled, child abusing monster. I'm sure he was a dick and an asshole from time to time, he definitely was a drill sergeant more often than he was a dad but he *was* their dad. And don't forget, in that family Sam was the little prince and Dean was what every older sibling was before we got all cautious with our kids--junior parent, babysitter, instructor, protector--and torturer, the only real perk you got for doing all that.

All we know about John we get from Dean and Sam and neither one of them is a reliable source of info when it comes to John.

I also believe that while he might have told Dean that they might have to kill Sam one day, he would never have done it. He might have believed that in order to save his kid he would, but I just can't see it. He might have seen the world in terms of black or white but it's a whole 'nother thing when your kids are involved. Parents will do almost anything before they'll admit their kids are a write-off. I doubt he could have, any more than Dean could have. That's my opinion.

I enjoy a horrible John occasionally, if it's well written it can really drive a story. But making him the MOTW just because you can't create your own characters or monsters...*shakes head* I'm judging.

Mind you, I haven't forgotten the story I wrote where John was a murderous, drink-addled, child abusing monster.

Comments

[fanspired]

It bothers me, too, that there are so many stories that attribute characteristics to John that aren't supported or are outright contradicted by the evidence in canon. I think people project their own daddy issues onto the character.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, god knows I do...man.

I feel sorry for some of those folks.

[fanspired]

Mmm. Indeed.

[rockstarpeach.livejournal.com]

Dude, I can't even tell you how often I've skipped over a fic on AO3 that I otherwise would have read, because it was tagged for 'John Winchester's A+ parenting'.

The fuck, people?

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Yep. It's beginning to be one of those tags that tell me not to click. Right up there with 'This sucks'.

[tipsy-kitty.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, that tag's usually a Lana Kane "Nope!" for me.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Right?

[theatervine.livejournal.com]

Yeah. John's a dick but he's not frigging Odin or Mikeal (The Originals). He's at worst Darth Vader and even he was a good father once he realized who his children were.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

...yesss.

Okay, I have to say, this just made me laugh! :D

On a scale of one to Darth Vader...*G*

[bubblesbrnaid]

Yeah, pretty much.

I *personally* dislike John. However, I am also fully cognizant that that has way more to do with *my* daddy issues than anything we ever actually saw on the show. And as far as parents go... *sigh* I've seen worse.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I think everyone sees John through Daddy-colored lenses. I think I like him because he reminds me of my own dad. Not that we hunted monsters or anything...we all had a complicated relationship with Pop, but things change from childhood to adulthood.

And yeah, I've see way, way worse.

[strgazr04.livejournal.com]

I think all we can really say about John is that he's the reason behind much of the brothers' issues, especially with their relationship. The fact that he turned Dean into a parent at such a young age is probably the reason that Dean can't let go of Sam now and why he keeps making decisions to look out for him (i.e. the whole Zeke/Gadreel fight between him and Sam last yr). Dean sacrifices himself the way a parent would for their child. And because they grew up like that, neither brother knows any other way. Sam tries to fight against it for independence (the way the youngest of the family normally does) and Dean is confused because he grew up defining himself and his self worth in how well he takes care of Sam. John's upbringing, or lack thereof, is the bulk of the reason behind this. And except for that one line in DSOTM that Dean says about John's reaction when Sam ran away, there's really no evidence of full on abuse. Negligence maybe, but that's about all.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

All that is very true. And if more of the writers would write the character from this POV, he'd be a more interesting and compelling character. I think what's bugging me is the rash of stories at AO3 in which John is depicted at as a monster, but in a way that feels to me like lazy writing. In fact, thinking about it, I'm more upset by the lack of believable characterization than I am by the character assassination!

[tabaqui]

Man, THIS. John did not 24/7 abuse/rape/starve/whatever his kids. Seriously, just....look at them. How they act, how they are, *who* they are.

Yeeesh.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Lazy writers are lazy. :(

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more. (I just wrote John for what I think might be the first time, and now I'm nervous lol.)

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Ooo, now I'm so curious! :D

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

ITA! I feel like the canon of the show has started twisting John a lot more as well, dropping little hints about him being abusive when he was drunk or whatever, but the first two seasons never portrayed John in that manner. He sacrificed his own life for Dean for goodness sake, and they ended on good terms with him apologising and showing appreciation for all of Dean's sacrifices, it would be nice if viewers could view him in a more balanced way

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU! Perfectly put!!