Top? Bottom?

[roxy]

I sent a note to sillie82 recently, because of an interesting comment in a post of mine. I thought I should share my wondering with you,'cause I'm nice like that.

The issue was warning for top/bottom. Now me, I don’t get why it matters. I like switching the best, maybe I'm just greedy. In years past, I would have really gotten steamed about being asked to warn for who tops or bottoms. Nowadays, I sort of get that it's not my judgment to make, and for some people, it's *very* important. I'm working like hell to be more open to other folks—so I'm going to try and remember to tag for that stuff.

A question to you all.

I get how you label Top Dean(or top whoever). That means of course, that Dean is fucking various characters, not being fucked. So, how do you label it if there's non-penetrative sex, but one is clearly the aggressor, for lack of a better word? Would the person instigating the sex be the top? Does it even apply in a situation like that?

What do you think? What tags would you like to see that folks don’t use enough? What tags should people stop using? I vote "this is crap I don’t even know". I do—NONCLICKY.

Comments

[meus_venator]

fufaraw who is my source of all knowledge told me to put the top first in your Dean/Sam (Dean tops) or Sam/Dean (Sam tops) which I never knew.

I thought if nothing happened you just did a comma, Dean, Sam, but if there is some kind of relationship you still list them as Dean/Sam (So Dean is the aggressor) and the rating shows there is no sex. So R, or PG…is that right?
Fu? Where are you?

I've had a lot of problems showing who tops in my stories because a lot of them have twists, Sharp Teeth, nothing is quite how it seems, same with Worlds Collide and The Thaw, and even Prime. If I told people who topped it's like a spoiler to the plot. I've been avoiding it, which I know can mean people avoid my stories. I'm also a huge fan of switching LOL. I'm F%@Ked! hahhahaa

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Mostly I meant, if no one is actually penetrating anyone, do you still label one actor as top, or not?

I've had a lot of problems showing who tops in my stories because a lot of them have twists

Yes! Because I'm not into writing the formula sex--both of them top, or neither of them top according to the way folks look at things, but if there are only blow jobs and Sam only blows Dean who does not reciprocate, what does that mean? Does that make Sam the top because he was the aggressor?

So confusing!

[meus_venator]

fufaraw will know, cause she's good like that : )

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

She is! :D

[phoenix1966]

Speaking for myself (and who else could I speak for?), who tops and bottoms is like a kink of mine. If I'm going to read a story that has explicit sex, then I'm going to look for ones that cater to my tastes and avoid ones that would have elements that I don't like. I can understand why an author would avoid the tag when who tops and bottoms would actually ruin a plot point, but if it doesn't ruin something (like who might end up an omega in a story), why wouldn't an author tag it? It doesn't ruin the story, takes only a moment and is a subject that does matter to some readers.

As for the specific example of aggressive behavior in a non-penetrative sexual encounter, I would probably tag the aggressive sexual partner as "toppy!".

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

As for the specific example of aggressive behavior in a non-penetrative sexual encounter, I would probably tag the aggressive sexual partner as "toppy!".

Ah! That's a good option!

I started out writing fanfic when no one warned for anything except character death and sometimes rape. There came a huge upheaval, concerning warnings and a writer's responsibility, and when the dust cleared, folks were much more likely to warn where they hadn't before. It made sense, in terms of triggering people. I do my best to be careful but sometimes, I just can't. Any writer wants to think their story is so damn good, so wonderful, people will be grateful to have read, even if it was outside their comfort zone. Which is crap, I know, because I can count on one hand the number of times I clicked on Dean/Cas.

At AO3, I am incredibly grateful for the tags, more than once, they have saved my eyes. I've learned my lesson, and now, I read the tag list to the bitter end! :D

[fireheart13.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I strruggle with that too. A lot of my stories have non-penetrative sex, or they switch. I have used "toppy",as phoenix1966 suggests, just to give the dynamic when I felt it fulfilled that dynamic.

[phoenix1966]

"Any writer wants to think their story is so damn good, so wonderful, people will be grateful to have read, even if it was outside their comfort zone. Which is crap, I know, because I can count on one hand the number of times I clicked on Dean/Cas."

I think for a lot of people, fanfiction is a form of controlled escapism. The reader wants to "get away from it all" for a while, but only in a specific fashion.

I am sure I have missed some absolutely amazing writing by not reading any Destiel, but that's just not something for me. And when it comes to fanfiction, I only want to escape so far and no farther.

[smalltrolven.livejournal.com]

I feel pretty similarly to you roxy, I really don't care too much, as long as whatever sex is happening makes sense in the story with the way the characters are being written, its all good. And yeah, more switching please (that would be a kink of mine if I'm honest.)
So, labeling, okay sure, why not? In fact, I think I'll go back and re-label it all just to see what I happen to write more often. I honestly have no freaking idea....and now I'm kinda curious.

[bubblesbrnaid]

I have said it before, and I shall say it again: This fandom needs a fucking dictionary.

In all senses of the phrase, apparently.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not that I don't understand what a top and what a bottom is--it's very apparent. What I'm wondering is, is how does one categorize non-penetrative sex, or should we even bother trying to? I was curious because I wrote a story with traditional top/bottom scenes, but also frottage, involving the same characters.

eta: also, heeee! :D

[bubblesbrnaid]

This is why I write gen. Well, that and my overall innocence.

(Hey, I typed that with a straight face!)

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I like toppy. I think it works really well. ;)

This idea of sex so many fanfic writers have--I think sometimes the younger ones don't think it's sex unless someone's dick is in someone's ass. I like to see many different ways to have sex, it makes me think the writer *really* thought about the emotional aspects of a relationship as well as the orgasms.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

In fact, I think I'll go back and re-label it all just to see what I happen to write more often. I honestly have no freaking idea....and now I'm kinda curious.


RIGHT??

I tend to think of myself as non-penetrative sex writer--I wonder if that's true? :)

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, my word, I think you are famous for your innocence, are you not? I, as well! Innocent as the day is long!

[elwarre.livejournal.com]

I can count on one hand the number of times I clicked on Dean/Cas.

This is cracking me up, both because I'm totally the same, and also because A Trickle of Strangers is one of only two stories that have Dean/Cas as the primary pairing that I actually liked.

[elwarre.livejournal.com]

I don't really get warnings? I mean, I get the potentially triggery ones. But about half the time warnings function more like advertisements for Why You Should Read This Fic. Like maybe instead the heading should go like this:

Title: Random SPN Fanfic
Author: Me
Summary: either the first line of the fic or something totally useless (I suck at summaries)

NOW FEATURING: violence, swearing, double penetration, buckets of wincestuous angst, someone being mean to Sam, Seriously Toppy Dean, and angel porn

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

hah! I'm forever doing something like that--Dean/Cas? Hell no! A Trickle of Strangers...Mpreg? Hell the fuck no! Ripley, Believe It Or Not, plus sequel...

I *adore* Three Kings verse, love it to bits, and it's Dean/Cas and practically porn-free and one of my fav series ever. I'm contrary like that--I earned it. :D :D :D

[elwarre.livejournal.com]

For the sake of any commenters who write Destiel, I should add that my issue isn't that I think it's bad, it's just that I hardly ever read it. I mostly just want to love on Sam.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

GIRL!!! You had me laughing all over my keyboard!!!!

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

hehehehehe

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever warned for that, but i have gotten some comments over the years wishing that I had. I have my own preference, but my characters often refuse to follow it, especially when it comes to the Winchesters ;)

[fanspired]

You know what, I think if anyone avoids my stories because I don't warn who's top or bottom, I'm just gonna accept that.

[dreamsofspike.livejournal.com]

I've gotten to where these days I'm a lot more fond of having a "Content Notice" line than a "warnings" line, and in it I include things that legit need warning for, like non-con, etc., but also include things that don't needs warnings but people just might want to know, like top!Dean, dom!Sam, etc. And that's how I do it usually if it's like, non-penetrative sex or no sex at all but one is clearly more in control in the relationship, I'll use dom!Dean or dom!Sam instead of top, because they're the more dominant party. I don't know if that's confusing or if that's how other people do it, it's just how I've gotten used to doing it. *shrugs*

I'm one of those people that would like to know. I don't get squicked out if I start reading a story and find that the one who's my preference isn't the top or dom, but I do get mildly disappointed and usually lose interest. I guess it's just that I see the boys in certain ways, and like to read stories that characterize them that way. :P So it's good to know, but not something I think requires a warning, exactly.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Now that I'm old, and less inclined to believe the world will actually go my way, I don't mind warning for it, tagging for it, whatever. I honestly don't have preference. There are characters I would rather not read about together but...you never know when or what story will grab you. :)

Except for JDM. I really don't want him having sex with anyone in a fic. I don't know why either, because he is very handsome and sexy.