Top? Bottom?

[roxy]

I sent a note to sillie82 recently, because of an interesting comment in a post of mine. I thought I should share my wondering with you,'cause I'm nice like that.

The issue was warning for top/bottom. Now me, I don’t get why it matters. I like switching the best, maybe I'm just greedy. In years past, I would have really gotten steamed about being asked to warn for who tops or bottoms. Nowadays, I sort of get that it's not my judgment to make, and for some people, it's *very* important. I'm working like hell to be more open to other folks—so I'm going to try and remember to tag for that stuff.

A question to you all.

I get how you label Top Dean(or top whoever). That means of course, that Dean is fucking various characters, not being fucked. So, how do you label it if there's non-penetrative sex, but one is clearly the aggressor, for lack of a better word? Would the person instigating the sex be the top? Does it even apply in a situation like that?

What do you think? What tags would you like to see that folks don’t use enough? What tags should people stop using? I vote "this is crap I don’t even know". I do—NONCLICKY.

Comments

[meus_venator]

fufaraw who is my source of all knowledge told me to put the top first in your Dean/Sam (Dean tops) or Sam/Dean (Sam tops) which I never knew.

I thought if nothing happened you just did a comma, Dean, Sam, but if there is some kind of relationship you still list them as Dean/Sam (So Dean is the aggressor) and the rating shows there is no sex. So R, or PG…is that right?
Fu? Where are you?

I've had a lot of problems showing who tops in my stories because a lot of them have twists, Sharp Teeth, nothing is quite how it seems, same with Worlds Collide and The Thaw, and even Prime. If I told people who topped it's like a spoiler to the plot. I've been avoiding it, which I know can mean people avoid my stories. I'm also a huge fan of switching LOL. I'm F%@Ked! hahhahaa

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Mostly I meant, if no one is actually penetrating anyone, do you still label one actor as top, or not?

I've had a lot of problems showing who tops in my stories because a lot of them have twists

Yes! Because I'm not into writing the formula sex--both of them top, or neither of them top according to the way folks look at things, but if there are only blow jobs and Sam only blows Dean who does not reciprocate, what does that mean? Does that make Sam the top because he was the aggressor?

So confusing!

[fufaraw]

Oh, first of all, this whole meshugges cheeses me off to no end. I cannot conceive why anybody would be squicked, much less *triggered* over who tops in a fictional sexual relationship, just so we know my starting point, here. Second of all, I'm a huge fan of equality in any relationship. I get why some folks prefer to be submissive and some prefer to dominate and I am okay with that. So I guess it's just a question of which partner a reader identifies with, and how they perceive that *fictional* RP character that tips them from "Oh boy! to Oh no!" But I like switching, I like switching an awful lot, depending on circumstances and the ebb and flow of power taken and ceded in any situation in a relationship--that's the fun! Or, you know, is for me. And I'm the one who counts, so that's what I write. But I get that me isn't everybody and other people have different ideas, though for the life of me I don't understand why, since *my* way is clearly superior...

Um. Yes, *your* question, roxy. If there is no penetrative sex, it isn't technically slash, so there would be no need for the top/bottom designation. Technically. You would include "heavy petting" or "non-penetrative" or "pre-coital" in your warnings, and note that Dudley is the more aggressive personality of the pair. Honestly, that should be sufficient. Because using the slash indicates that there is actual coitus, thus notations like m/m, f/m, f/f, etc.

I take it this would not be the optimum venue for my rant on how sensitive and susceptible to "triggering" some precious readers are, and why the heck they aren't reading in some space that's safe for them? I deeply, deep.ly. resent listing every freaking event that takes place in a fic, because once you've read the friggin warnings, well, now you don't have to read the fic, am I right? So, here and now, you only get the thumbnail of the rant. I can do high rock pulpit, call down the lightning, thunder of hell and damnation, but this is neither time nor place for that. Yes.

[phoenix1966]

Speaking for myself (and who else could I speak for?), who tops and bottoms is like a kink of mine. If I'm going to read a story that has explicit sex, then I'm going to look for ones that cater to my tastes and avoid ones that would have elements that I don't like. I can understand why an author would avoid the tag when who tops and bottoms would actually ruin a plot point, but if it doesn't ruin something (like who might end up an omega in a story), why wouldn't an author tag it? It doesn't ruin the story, takes only a moment and is a subject that does matter to some readers.

As for the specific example of aggressive behavior in a non-penetrative sexual encounter, I would probably tag the aggressive sexual partner as "toppy!".

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

As for the specific example of aggressive behavior in a non-penetrative sexual encounter, I would probably tag the aggressive sexual partner as "toppy!".

Ah! That's a good option!

I started out writing fanfic when no one warned for anything except character death and sometimes rape. There came a huge upheaval, concerning warnings and a writer's responsibility, and when the dust cleared, folks were much more likely to warn where they hadn't before. It made sense, in terms of triggering people. I do my best to be careful but sometimes, I just can't. Any writer wants to think their story is so damn good, so wonderful, people will be grateful to have read, even if it was outside their comfort zone. Which is crap, I know, because I can count on one hand the number of times I clicked on Dean/Cas.

At AO3, I am incredibly grateful for the tags, more than once, they have saved my eyes. I've learned my lesson, and now, I read the tag list to the bitter end! :D

[fireheart13.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I strruggle with that too. A lot of my stories have non-penetrative sex, or they switch. I have used "toppy",as phoenix1966 suggests, just to give the dynamic when I felt it fulfilled that dynamic.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I like toppy. I think it works really well. ;)

This idea of sex so many fanfic writers have--I think sometimes the younger ones don't think it's sex unless someone's dick is in someone's ass. I like to see many different ways to have sex, it makes me think the writer *really* thought about the emotional aspects of a relationship as well as the orgasms.

[smalltrolven.livejournal.com]

I feel pretty similarly to you roxy, I really don't care too much, as long as whatever sex is happening makes sense in the story with the way the characters are being written, its all good. And yeah, more switching please (that would be a kink of mine if I'm honest.)
So, labeling, okay sure, why not? In fact, I think I'll go back and re-label it all just to see what I happen to write more often. I honestly have no freaking idea....and now I'm kinda curious.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

In fact, I think I'll go back and re-label it all just to see what I happen to write more often. I honestly have no freaking idea....and now I'm kinda curious.


RIGHT??

I tend to think of myself as non-penetrative sex writer--I wonder if that's true? :)

[bubblesbrnaid]

I have said it before, and I shall say it again: This fandom needs a fucking dictionary.

In all senses of the phrase, apparently.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not that I don't understand what a top and what a bottom is--it's very apparent. What I'm wondering is, is how does one categorize non-penetrative sex, or should we even bother trying to? I was curious because I wrote a story with traditional top/bottom scenes, but also frottage, involving the same characters.

eta: also, heeee! :D

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

hehehehehe

[elwarre.livejournal.com]

I don't really get warnings? I mean, I get the potentially triggery ones. But about half the time warnings function more like advertisements for Why You Should Read This Fic. Like maybe instead the heading should go like this:

Title: Random SPN Fanfic
Author: Me
Summary: either the first line of the fic or something totally useless (I suck at summaries)

NOW FEATURING: violence, swearing, double penetration, buckets of wincestuous angst, someone being mean to Sam, Seriously Toppy Dean, and angel porn

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

GIRL!!! You had me laughing all over my keyboard!!!!

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever warned for that, but i have gotten some comments over the years wishing that I had. I have my own preference, but my characters often refuse to follow it, especially when it comes to the Winchesters ;)

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Now that I'm old, and less inclined to believe the world will actually go my way, I don't mind warning for it, tagging for it, whatever. I honestly don't have preference. There are characters I would rather not read about together but...you never know when or what story will grab you. :)

Except for JDM. I really don't want him having sex with anyone in a fic. I don't know why either, because he is very handsome and sexy.

[fanspired]

You know what, I think if anyone avoids my stories because I don't warn who's top or bottom, I'm just gonna accept that.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

LOL!!!

[dreamsofspike.livejournal.com]

I've gotten to where these days I'm a lot more fond of having a "Content Notice" line than a "warnings" line, and in it I include things that legit need warning for, like non-con, etc., but also include things that don't needs warnings but people just might want to know, like top!Dean, dom!Sam, etc. And that's how I do it usually if it's like, non-penetrative sex or no sex at all but one is clearly more in control in the relationship, I'll use dom!Dean or dom!Sam instead of top, because they're the more dominant party. I don't know if that's confusing or if that's how other people do it, it's just how I've gotten used to doing it. *shrugs*

I'm one of those people that would like to know. I don't get squicked out if I start reading a story and find that the one who's my preference isn't the top or dom, but I do get mildly disappointed and usually lose interest. I guess it's just that I see the boys in certain ways, and like to read stories that characterize them that way. :P So it's good to know, but not something I think requires a warning, exactly.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Ah, there, I think what I was actually meaning but not getting that's what I meant, was content notice, which is very a very good idea! I tend to be all over the map as far as the boys are concerned, so letting folks know what to expect is a kindness I guess!

You know, I often avoid a story because I see dom!Dean or Sam, thinking it means BDSM--but it seems you're using it just to mean the less aggressive partner? Interesting! I'll have to look more in the future! :D

[tabaqui]

I....wow. My opinion is probably *not* terribly open minded, as some warnings i find utterly ridiculous and would, for instance, tag for 'top' or 'bottom' anyone. I try to for stuff like suicidal thoughts, explicit sex, gore/torture... But that's about it.

I want a tag for major character death, because i don't want to read about someone dying who is alive in canon. And for genderswapping and mpreg. Otherwise...i'm pretty much 'whatever', if the fic is about 'ships i like. I barely read tags, most of the time, especially when there are a ton.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

True that--but I figure outside my journal, at AO3 for instance, I don't mind tagging for every potential trigger. And I've noticed at AO3, all those character death tags tend to end up waaaaaaaaay at the end of a shit-ton of tags. I can't tell you how many times I've accidently read a death fic...my heart is hardened now....

[rosy5000.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't understand the warning for top/bottom. It threw me off a bit when I first saw it on AO3. But then, so do many of the warnings over there. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm warned for major character deaths, I'm pretty satisfied. I swear some authors on AO3 just pull tags out of their asses just to use them. Seriously, where do they come up with some of them???

Actually, I think I remember this subject of tagging/warning coming up a while ago. My favorite point from that was that you don't get warnings or tags on print books, movies or tv shows. Why do you need them on fanfic? I get that tags on AO3 are for searching purposes too, which I have used like WHOA!, but don't over do it either.

I totally agree that "this is crap" needs to never be used again. I would LOVE if people would start using "I never watched the show but I'm writing fanfic anyways" though. How do you write fanfic for a show you've never seen!?!? GAHHH!

And now I'm becoming a Rambling Rosy! heee!

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Heeee! Ramblin' Rosy!! :D

I swear some authors on AO3 just pull tags out of their asses just to use them.

It's really frigging annoying, but I think those long ass taggers are from tumblr? different culture and mores, I guess. idiots.

"I never watched the show but I'm writing fanfic anyways"

I will click away from this at supersonic speed. What. The. Heck?

[nicnac918.livejournal.com]

As far as whether you need to tag for who tops and who bottoms I think that depends on how important to the story the sex scenes are and how large a portion of the story they are. If you're writing a PWP, then yes of course tag it; if I'm reading a story for the porn, I want to know what kind of porn I'm getting. But, by contrast, if your 600,000 word opus has one sex scene in it, that you probably could rewrite as a fade to black without too much effort, definitely don't tag who's topping. That thing is already going to have way too many tags without adding ones on that are not really relevant to the prospective reader's understanding of what the story will be like.

Now, given that you need a tag, how it should work is top! And bottom! to denote who takes which position during penetrative intercourse regardless of any power imbalance, or lack therefore of, and dom! and sub! (Of course, if it is meant in a legitimate BDSM sense, there would also be a BDSM tag) for which person is the aggressor, regardless of their positions during the penetrative sex, or lack therefore of. I think it's important to keep these two separate and not to use the term toppy as a substitute for dom (aside from the fact that the only word that sounds stupider than toppy is its rarely (never?) used counterpart, bottomy) is that when you don't, you perpetuate the false stereotype that the penetrative partner is dominant/powerful/masculine and the penetrated partner is submissive/weak/feminine.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Sometimes the tags at AO3 make you expect things that don't happen because of this tendency to tag for EVERYTHING, so yes, if it's not relevant to the story, don't do it. Dom/sub makes me uncomfortable whether it's BDSM or not. I just don't like the terms.

[quiet--tiger.livejournal.com]

I want a "like" button for what tabaqui said above--give me a warning for the biggie things like death and mpreg, and actual real triggers like suicidal thoughts, extreme violence, non-con, that sort of thing, but otherwise I don't want a big cluttering of tags (as amusing as I find ones like "all the feels"). I think I go overboard the other way and don't do enough tags when I post, but I can't quite adapt to the tagapalooza over on AO3.

My "no click" tag has always been "not betaed." I don't give a crap if it's betaed or not, I mean, jeez, plenty of great/fun writers don't generally use a beta and it doesn't matter, but advertising that it isn't betaed as a "Warning" makes me feel like I need to brace myself for something that isn't written well, which I don't normally feel like doing. The "I suck at summaries" thing is annoying as well.

Basically, if I get bored reading the paragraph of tags, there are too many.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the older I get, the more open I am to tagging, warning, stuff like that. As long as folks don't jump down my throat because I neglected to tag something, I'm good. But I think the abundance of useless tags at AO3 make the tagging system a joke instead of a useful tool. And the 'not betaed' tag is just a lazy-ass way to say "I wrote this and posted it without even spellchecking it."

[somersault-j.livejournal.com]

For me it's a kink. And a lot of people are her for the kink, or want to read kink now and again, so for me it's more an enticement. And yes, I'm in the bottom!Jensen/Dean corner like you wouldn't believe. I would never force people to tag it (because let's face it, even in original fiction you don't get many warnings), but I will work it out before starting to read one way or the other. It would be easier if people would tag, but I also know that people who don't care who tops or bottoms, don't understand the ones who only have one preference. I even felt guily for it for a long time. But at this point? And after all the years I'm on here? Nope, I read what I read and I like it :)

What I actually wanted to say. I would be thrilled to see you tag it :) As for the non-penetrative sex, I think there were some good suggestions above. Like using toppy?

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I'm not opposed to tagging or warning nowadays, and I will try to do my best to remember because, hell, it's not such a big thing to do. I don't mind having a gentle reminder to do so. But if I get yelled at to do something, like most folks, my back goes up and I get pissed. It's hard to remember that some people mind a *lot*, it's hard to remember to tag for things that as a writer, basically serve to move the action along and so I'm not especially invested in an incident or behavior. That comes from being socially backward in regards to--quite lot, actually, lol!

I'm coming to like toppy very much. I think I tend to write a rather toppy Sam. I write them as switches because I like looking at sex from both sides *and* to keep from being bored. :)

[masja-17.livejournal.com]

Not really on the subject but still. My OTP for the boys is always switching, I can't see either of them being the bottom all the time. So thanks for making that clear in your BB this year. Loved it! Still kinda dreaming about the boys...
I always think that the boys will be switching if no warning is present for either of them topping (or bottoming). So that's what I'm looking for in fic nowadays.

<3

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I do really like switching, too! It's interesting to me to see their different reactions to sex, how each of them go about the same act. It's fun to write it and to read it! I honestly had no idea how deeply some folks felt about it, so I'm learning new things and learning what tags I need.

Thanks so much for reading my BB, too! I'll respond as soon as I can!

[kinkyheels.livejournal.com]

Well for me this applies to the RPF side of the fandom. I'e never really made it to Wincest regularly. I'm a fan of switching and bottom Jared but almost always write bottom Jensen. Damned muse.

I don't warn for top/bottom and I don't plan to start. I use an expansive list of tags and still there will invariably be someone that is upset because I didn't tag for this or didn't tag for that. Honestly, how many tags can you use before it requires a word count of it's own?

I agree with meus_venator about the name before the slash should represent the top or aggressor. It's a simple solution and requires no extra tags!

[meus_venator]

fufaraw told me that was originally how you were supposed to use the slash in fan fic writing, but I think that notion has been watered down over the years, because I didn't realize. I'd always used Jared/Jensen just because of how it rolls off the tongue. Well in my fics that means it was right about fifty percent of the time LOL!

And mmmmm switching.