Top? Bottom?

[roxy]

I sent a note to sillie82 recently, because of an interesting comment in a post of mine. I thought I should share my wondering with you,'cause I'm nice like that.

The issue was warning for top/bottom. Now me, I don’t get why it matters. I like switching the best, maybe I'm just greedy. In years past, I would have really gotten steamed about being asked to warn for who tops or bottoms. Nowadays, I sort of get that it's not my judgment to make, and for some people, it's *very* important. I'm working like hell to be more open to other folks—so I'm going to try and remember to tag for that stuff.

A question to you all.

I get how you label Top Dean(or top whoever). That means of course, that Dean is fucking various characters, not being fucked. So, how do you label it if there's non-penetrative sex, but one is clearly the aggressor, for lack of a better word? Would the person instigating the sex be the top? Does it even apply in a situation like that?

What do you think? What tags would you like to see that folks don’t use enough? What tags should people stop using? I vote "this is crap I don’t even know". I do—NONCLICKY.

Comments

[meus_venator]

fufaraw who is my source of all knowledge told me to put the top first in your Dean/Sam (Dean tops) or Sam/Dean (Sam tops) which I never knew.

I thought if nothing happened you just did a comma, Dean, Sam, but if there is some kind of relationship you still list them as Dean/Sam (So Dean is the aggressor) and the rating shows there is no sex. So R, or PG…is that right?
Fu? Where are you?

I've had a lot of problems showing who tops in my stories because a lot of them have twists, Sharp Teeth, nothing is quite how it seems, same with Worlds Collide and The Thaw, and even Prime. If I told people who topped it's like a spoiler to the plot. I've been avoiding it, which I know can mean people avoid my stories. I'm also a huge fan of switching LOL. I'm F%@Ked! hahhahaa

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Mostly I meant, if no one is actually penetrating anyone, do you still label one actor as top, or not?

I've had a lot of problems showing who tops in my stories because a lot of them have twists

Yes! Because I'm not into writing the formula sex--both of them top, or neither of them top according to the way folks look at things, but if there are only blow jobs and Sam only blows Dean who does not reciprocate, what does that mean? Does that make Sam the top because he was the aggressor?

So confusing!

[meus_venator]

fufaraw will know, cause she's good like that : )

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

She is! :D

[fufaraw]

Oh, first of all, this whole meshugges cheeses me off to no end. I cannot conceive why anybody would be squicked, much less *triggered* over who tops in a fictional sexual relationship, just so we know my starting point, here. Second of all, I'm a huge fan of equality in any relationship. I get why some folks prefer to be submissive and some prefer to dominate and I am okay with that. So I guess it's just a question of which partner a reader identifies with, and how they perceive that *fictional* RP character that tips them from "Oh boy! to Oh no!" But I like switching, I like switching an awful lot, depending on circumstances and the ebb and flow of power taken and ceded in any situation in a relationship--that's the fun! Or, you know, is for me. And I'm the one who counts, so that's what I write. But I get that me isn't everybody and other people have different ideas, though for the life of me I don't understand why, since *my* way is clearly superior...

Um. Yes, *your* question, roxy. If there is no penetrative sex, it isn't technically slash, so there would be no need for the top/bottom designation. Technically. You would include "heavy petting" or "non-penetrative" or "pre-coital" in your warnings, and note that Dudley is the more aggressive personality of the pair. Honestly, that should be sufficient. Because using the slash indicates that there is actual coitus, thus notations like m/m, f/m, f/f, etc.

I take it this would not be the optimum venue for my rant on how sensitive and susceptible to "triggering" some precious readers are, and why the heck they aren't reading in some space that's safe for them? I deeply, deep.ly. resent listing every freaking event that takes place in a fic, because once you've read the friggin warnings, well, now you don't have to read the fic, am I right? So, here and now, you only get the thumbnail of the rant. I can do high rock pulpit, call down the lightning, thunder of hell and damnation, but this is neither time nor place for that. Yes.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Eh! I used to be super-bugged by it, but now I'm all, "To each his own and it doesn't hurt me to make someone else comfortable." I never used to warn for anything, at all. Like--NOTHING! Not one character eating another, not one character dying and dreaming they were experiencing their hearts desire, or rape, torture, drugs...it used to be the wild, wild west up in here. But times change and Yer Mother got older and a lot nicer and some people really can't handle it. Now, when I have warned for triggering situations and folks *still* complain, well, then they can kiss my ass. (this has happened at AO3. there are some real prima donnas over there. Folks here on LJ tend to be more...mature? Flexible? Polite?

I understand what you mean about the slash, but posting without it, even if there is no inserting parts, means to me it's a gen story. I would sincerely like to slap everyone who posts at AO3 with a slash when they mean &.

But really, I'm much more chill now.

I can do high rock pulpit, call down the lightning, thunder of hell and damnation, but this is neither time nor place for that.

I'd kind of like to see that one day. :D

[sillie]

I cannot conceive why anybody would be squicked, much less *triggered* over who tops in a fictional sexual relationship

Just because it's something you can't imagine, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Good for you that you can read everything. I can't. I wish I could. I really didn't *choose* to get squicked out by top!Jensen/Dean. It doesn't have a reason. My brain has decided this for me. When I accidentely bump into top!Jensen/Dean sex, I just get thrown right out of a story, my whole body gets flooded with the feeling of nope nope nope. I also like equality in the relationships in fic, but when it comes down to dick in butt, I can only read it one way.

That being said, I'm not going around demanding writers warn , tag or mention it in some way, but I do really, really appreciate it when they do. If you don't want to? That's absolutely fine. What I resent though is being called 'precious' for liking to be warned for something that squicks me the hell out.

To each their own, okay?

[fufaraw]

"But I get that me isn't everybody and other people have different ideas, though for the life of me I don't understand why, since *my* way is clearly superior... "

I was feeling unaccustomedly ranty yesterday, as those who know me understand I get, from time to time. And I was also attempting to mock my own self-importance and opinions in my first paragraph. I should police how I express that a bit, phrase it more compassionately. I actually *do* feel that readers often use "trigger" when they actually mean "write what I want to read"--and in that case the onus is on them to find what they like, and not have the mandate to dictate to writers, unless, you know, they're paying. However, I firmly believe that if something *is* triggery, it needs to be tagged, whether *I* find it triggering, or not. So I do tag, though I try and avoid spoiling for plot--even if sometimes the two things can't coexist.

I am *not* triggered, but I *am* squicked by the angel/human sex power imbalance, vehemently so, and I simply avoid it, whenever, wherever, and by whomever. I'm aware I'm missing a lot of marvelous fic by wonderful writers, but it's an instance when *I'm* grateful for tags and warnings. I do get it.

Sorry I went overboard with the humorous-intended rant. You're certainly allowed your passions and your squicks, as are we all, and to have things tagged so we're comfortable.

[sillie]

I am *not* triggered, but I *am* squicked by the angel/human sex power imbalance, vehemently so, and I simply avoid it, whenever, wherever, and by whomever. I'm aware I'm missing a lot of marvelous fic by wonderful writers, but it's an instance when *I'm* grateful for tags and warnings. I do get it.

This is me with top!Jensen/ Dean. I'm not triggered but I am squicked out bad. So right now, when I come across fic that's labelled NC17 and it doesn't mention anywhere who tops or bottoms, I just skip it.

Sorry I went overboard with the humorous-intended rant. You're certainly allowed your passions and your squicks, as are we all, and to have things tagged so we're comfortable.

Thanks. I somewhere got that you intended it to be humorous, but over the years I have so often seen these kind of comments ment in a serious way that I just had to say something. Like I said, I would never go into a writers comment section and demand they label their fic, but if they do label it I'm very grateful.

[sylsdarkplace]

This brings up a couple of things in my mind. The difference between a squick and a trigger, which I admit I'm more respectful of triggers than squicks. A squick is like someone putting a load of broccoli on your plate when you don't like broccoli. mpreg used to be broccoli; then I started writing it. .

The other is: What exactly do we mean by "top"? I see it used here to describe Jensen with a dick in his ass, but I've read some damned toppy Jensen with a dick in his ass. That's what topping from the bottom is. It can get complicated, and in a fic in which who tops/bottoms is related to the plot -- as meus_venator mentioned -- it can be a spoiler.

I don't understand the aversion to certain characters bottoming/topping, but I can sympathize with someone getting into a fic and discovering something that completely turns them off. I once got into a fic that wasn't tagged as having Destiel in it, and for me, that's a major squick.

[sillie]

Well, I don't want to call my reaction to top!Jensen/Dean a trigger, because I didn't have something happen in my past that sets my reaction off. So I call it a squick. I'm pretty damn sure this squick won't change though, because I've tried reading top!Jensen/Dean several times over the years and it made my reaction to it only worse, so I've stopped doing that.

For me, my squick gets set off by who's dick is going into who's ass. That being said, if in a fic Jensen or Dean is seriously toppy in behavior I'll probably stop reading as well as that is not something I like. But it doesn't set of that serious badwrong feeling that the actual penetrating sex does. Also, if mentioning who tops or bottoms is a spoiler, you can put it behind a spoiler cut. That way the reader can choose whether they want to be spoiled or not.

Just because you don't understand the aversion, doesn't mean you can't have a little empathy for us who do. People understand that not everyone likes every kink, and that certain kinks can be squicks/ triggers for others, but suddenly, when it comes to who tops or bottoms, that understanding goes right out the window. I just don't get that.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Say, just curious here--what's your definition of toppy behavior?

I used to think top meant only one kind of behavior and that was aggressively domineering, and in my mind, that was not good. Now, I'm aware that a bit of aggressive behavior can be a good thing but before I would see top!Jensen, Jared, and steel myself for asshole behavior that never came--it just meant Jared's was the dick in slot B, so to speak.

[sillie]

Hmm... I guess my definition of toppy behavior is being the one who instigates everything and is domineering (but not necceserily aggressively).

For me, the top/ bottom labels are purely aimed at the penetrative sex, and not at all the other things around it or how the behavior in the relationship is.

[sylsdarkplace]

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I've never thought of bottom/top as a kink. I guess for some people it is. So, thank you for making me see it that way.

I think if we can come up with a consistent way of tagging it, I might go for it in the future. Say, using the top person's name first in the pairing -- Dean/Sam -- as meus_venator suggested. I'd never heard that before, but it's a good idea if it became common knowledge. The issue with that is all the old fics with standard, Sam/Dean, Jared/Jensen. That could be misleading, and I for one, will likely not go back re-read and re-tag seventy some fics -- cause, hey, I don't remember who ...

Okay, I just started to type "who tops who" and I couldn't because it's actually so misrepresentative of what's happening if I try to say the guy taking it up the ass is on bottom. See, it isnt' just about kink. It isn't. It's about a relationship and a power dynamic that isnt' accurately reflected in the physical act of penetration. Nope. Two different things.

[fufaraw]

Just a quick question--most of the relationships I write have the partners switching, when somebody's feeling toppy, or particularly needy. It's purely personality driven, none of them are exclusively top/bottom. Does that bother you, when sexual positions are fluid within a relationship? I'm just curious, since you indicated a strong preference. Would switching qualify a fic as no-read for you?

[sillie]

Would switching qualify a fic as no-read for you?

It seriously depends on how explicit the sex scene is written. These days though, if it's labeled NC17 and it's labelled as switching, I skip it. I know I'm missing out on awesome fic this way, but the way I feel when I accidentely read explicit sex with top!Jensen/ Dean is not something I want. :/ It didn't used to be that way, I used to be able to skip the top!Jensen/Dean sex part and keep on reading. But after reading mountains of fanfic for 8 years, my reaction to it has gotten worse and worse, and now I just get thrown out so badly I can't go back to the fic. :/