spn ramblig

[roxy]

So when Castiel pulled Dean out of Hell, he had the backing of Heaven behind him, am I right, or am I remembering it wrong? That means that he was being arrogant as hell to pull Sam out of the cage, Hell, on his own and if that's so, he was feeling a little God-ish for quite some time before really making it so.

Of course, I'm always reading things wrong--it's like I'm watching a whole 'nother show sometime. My kid, who watches it kind of on the fly with me, noticed that there was something wrong with Sam right off the bat. Me, I was clueless. Subsequent viewing of the ep left me all,"duh, you idiot" but really, most first viewings I'm just kind of dazzled by Dean. It's watching the old shows again that made me come to really feel heartbreak for Sam. He tries so hard and never gets the credit he deserves for it. Sure, Dean loves him, obviously come hell or high water, but he doesn't seem to be able to get past that package of Sammy he'd been trained to protect from day one. Brothers, man.

Thinking about brothers, I kind of hope Adam never comes back. I don't think I could take Dean's guilt if he does. That choice that was really not a choice, at least for Dean, would hang over everyone's head like a guillotine blade. Me, I'm hoping for a less angsty season (HAHAHAAA) and something like that would put a serious kink in my hopes for puppies and rainbows.

Comments

[orbiting-saturn.livejournal.com]

Castiel does mention that he got to Dean by stepping over the bodies of his slain brothers, so yes, he had the backing of Heaven. I honestly don't think that the writers originally intended for Castiel to have been the one to pull Sam out of Hell, so all of that storyline feels really clunky. But even if they had, yeah, it was really arrogant of him to go in by himself to pull Sam out. But consider it this way, he'd just been pieced back together by God for a second time right after slowly loosing his powers and becoming human. He was probably feeling pretty invincible at the time. And it was DEAN that put the whole "Sheriff of Heaven" thing in his head.

I didn't notice that there was anything wrong with Sam until the disgusting hooker scene. That was a really big clue for me. Sam would NEVER. Sam breaks my heart in every capacity and gets the short end of the stick always. He always gets the wrap of being the "bad" brother, but it doesn't jibe with me. Everything he's ever done has always been with the best of intentions. Dean, I love him, but he sometimes goes dead-eyed and likes torturing people in Hell. I don't understand why he always gets a free pass. (obvs SG here)

I hope they never bring Adam back because he was horrible in every way possible. The end.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see that they backtracked there, but I liked it. It's almost as if that 2014 Cas still happened, or happened on this timeline, only--megalomania instead of stonedyogateacher-slut. I liked watching Castiel slowly go bonkers. It was fascinating--and heart breaking, and I felt sorry for him so many times. I felt like he kept expecting Dean to understand, but Dean couldn't. He just saw Cas being Sam all over again. On an aftershool special note, I kind of expected Cas at some point to yell at Sam, "I learned it from yooooou!"

Sam breaks my heart in every capacity and gets the short end of the stick always. He always gets the wrap of being the "bad" brother, but it doesn't jibe with me
Speaking from the perspective of a crazed DeanGirl here, I agree with you mostly. How anyone could say Sam is the bad brother is beyond me--he's just the *brother*. They used to look so different on the surface but when you scraped away all the junk, underneath it all, they wanted the same thing, for each other to be safe and happy. I'm sure that still hold true.

I'm pretty sure Dean only gets a free pass in fandom--he punishes himself plenty for what he did. Dean's never thought of himself as a good person, I think, whereas I think Sam always did until recently.

[orbiting-saturn.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure Dean only gets a free pass in fandom--he punishes himself plenty for what he did. Dean's never thought of himself as a good person, I think, whereas I think Sam always did until recently.

You make a very good point there. Through so much of S5 and S6, I've been frustrated with Dean's character, mostly because of the way the show has been so apologetic of his character. NOT that Dean doesn't beat himself up plenty. Mostly because the way the writers have turned his character into the protagonist and watered down his faults to turn him into the plucky anti-hero type. It's the way the show is trying to skew the viewers' perceptions of Sam and Dean. They're both kind of arrogant assholes most of the time, but they want Dean to get away with it and Sam to get punished for it.

Castiel is a whole other ball game. There's something inherently sociopathic about his character, but whether or not that's because he's an angel or that's just part of who he is has never really been clarified because they can't be bothered to develop his character with any kind of consistency. It makes me want to weep that the whole Godstiel storyline is almost definitely going to get shafted, because it will be yet another epic possibility that they don't have the time, money or imagination to take to the next level. Like Lucifer.

SPN is sort of screwy because they are so determined to pander to the fans. But they can't ever get it right because there's this whole sect of purists who want the show to remain all about the SamandDean claustrophobia with subplots. And then there's another sect who want it to expand into side-characters and epic story arcs. It's like the writers can't ever do anything right, no matter what they do. Poor writers and producers. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Very true, very true! If they didn't have fans like me who go, "What? Really? Well...okay!" they'd be in trouble!

I don't think the show was ever just about Sam and Dean, Fearless Monster Killers. It was always about more than that, imo. There was always something going on, some *thing* that was going to happen--I just don't think the writers knew what it was. I wish they'd kind of stuck with the story line that seemed like it was going to be about Sam and his powers. That would have been so cool!

I'm not so sure that I agree with Dean getting away with stuff and Sam being punished for it--to me, it seems like they suffer pretty equally. But that's probably because I thoroughly enjoy a Sam *and* Dean sandwich, not a Dean sandwich with a side of Sam, light on the mayo. Though I also really like a nice Cas and Sam special....

[serafina20.livejournal.com]

The idea I got from the retro-canon of "The Man Who Would Be King" (I think that was the ep that Castiel played Mr. Exposition) was that Castiel's whole arc during the season was supposed to be his mounting arrogance and belief that he could do anything with impunity.

Of course, since they shunted his storyline to the side (I'm busy fighting over here, I can't be in this episode), we didn't really see anything until the end of the season. It seems like, at least the last few seasons, the arc that proves to be "important" at the end of the season is the one that gets the least screentime/thought, so it always feels a little rushed.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I think yes, they have a tendency to say, 'while we were here, this was happening over there, but don't worry, it all ties together. Somehow.'

I think that was the ep that Castiel played Mr. Exposition

*SNORF!!!!*

[tuckercat2.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on all points! I think Cas doing that on his own is the reason it was screwed up! And wow, he really wanted to Dean to be safe...

Dean gets my attention and I feel bad for Sam. I am an older sibling so I feel for Dean and wish I had an older sibling that would care about me half as much as Dean does Sam. I have to say I was very happy with Sam's comment that he would not leave his brother out there alone. Finally! I just wanted to hear Sam say what I believe he has felt all along. I was upset with how much shit Dean had to deal with at the beginning of 6, everyone he cared about from his old life let him continue thinking Sam was gone. I don't want Adam back either for the same reason.

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

I was upset with how much shit Dean had to deal with at the beginning of 6, everyone he cared about from his old life let him continue thinking Sam was gone.

Yeah, but the Cambells were assholes who didn't know Dean(I wonder if Soulless fostered that attitude towards Dean?) and Bobby thought he was doing the right thing by Dean. They wanted him to finally get that house and family--well, of course, Soulless had his own agenda, but Sam might have done the same thing. What pissed me off was everyone thinking Dean was weak, as if he'd made that choice to be with Lisa on his own.

I'm the oldest too, and I get how that relationship goes. Your sibs think you're Superman, and then one day, you ain't shit. It's hard to take, lol! But the wheel turns around and then you're cool again...eventually. *GGG* I see that with these guys, but I do think Sam's mistaken. I think Dean does think he's his own man, it's only when Sam pushes it that Dean pushes back in that ridiculous way, treating Sam like he's four when he knows damn well what Sam's gone through. It's so much like real life, hah! Only of course, less demon blood drinking....

[tuckercat2.livejournal.com]

I haven't been superman in a long time... Used to be very close to my youngest sis but... ah time it just does things to people. Guess that is another reason I love SPN, the brothers are still close.

I was upset at the weak thing too! And when they made fun of the golf clubs? HELLO! Sam you were the one to say get out of hunting! Then when soulless let Dean get vamped! OMG! I thought I was going to come undone! Sam has gone thru a lot and now that he remembers the time in the cage? Doesn't bear thinking about. Dean will be there for him. Sam just acts like a younger sibling and Dean pretty much raised him so it's like Sam is brother/son. I wish they would show that Dean is pretty smart also - remember the walkman ghost hunting thing? That line was let go early on. Anyway, I love them both, I like Dean more cos I do, but it is both of them that makes the show. I don't dis Sam and don't like to read when people do and if they dis Dean I just get plain mad, lol!!!

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Oh man, you have no idea how hard I love Smart Dean. I think it's so true, from the tiny occasional slips they give us.

I love Sam--I was really upset when someone thought I was bashing him in this new fic I'm doing. *shakes head* How could I bash someone who is so important to the story of the Winchesters? In my head it's ALWAYS SamnDean.

[tuckercat2.livejournal.com]

I agree! I love to read fic that show Dean is smart. I agree no bashing the bros!!

You can not have the Dean we know and love without Sam - Sammy. Silly people.

[tabaqui]

Oh, man. Yes to everything here!

It was so heartbreaking to see Castiel doing exactly what Sam was doing - going down a questionable path but being blindly obstinate that it was *right* because he was so desperate to Make Things Better and Save his soulmate the Boys.
*pets him*

And i think - he's not human. He's an angel. He isn't used to considering other people's feelings or points of view - he's dealing with emotions he hasn't had before - thousands of years of no real emotions other than loving God and probably joy in creation and then, suddenly - he has to feel fear and desperation and envy and shame and anger and love and embarrassment.... I think he hit overload about the same time Sam died and Dean stopped hunting, but he had to keep going because Raphael was out there, intent on fucking it all up again.

I have *always* been a Deangirl, but Sam is by no means unimportant. Remembering Bobby and Dean talking about him, how they 'always rode him pretty hard' and how he felt that John didn't really love him (and later, thought John died thinking Sam hated him) and how he thought Dean was heroic perfection personified.... Is it any wonder he grabbed onto something he thought would give him the ability to save his brother, save the world, fix everything? Manipulated into doing crazy things, surrendering his better judgment to dicey 'fixes' and acting, in my opinion, like he really thought was 'right' because he was sure that's what Dean (and John) would do. Had done. He didn't have much of a chance, poor kid, and he's grown *so much* and done so good....

And Dean - i kinda feel sometimes he's gotten a little stuck, that the writers have fixated a little too much on his angst and his 'issues' and not let him have the same growth as Sam. But he's changed, too - grown a bit, discovered some things, lost and gained.....

But everybody is too enamored of hurty!boys and epic fallout and bait-and-switch 'good guys' who turn into bad guys. Our boys - they are doooomed!
Doooooomed!

:)

I have so much luff for them. I have no clue what season seven will bring - i am so anxious for it to start!

*smooches you*

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

It was so heartbreaking to see Castiel doing exactly what Sam was doing

Yes! Man, just seeing it happen was terrible, and worse because no one seemed to notice that he was hanging on by a thread. If anything, they abandoned Castiel, and Dean realized that too late. Granted, he was wrapped up in what was happening with Lisa and with Sam.

I think he hit overload about the same time Sam died and Dean stopped hunting, but he had to keep going because Raphael was out there, intent on fucking it all up again.

Right, right--he kept going but without anyone to guide him, without his friends he kind of went ballistic, just like Sam did without Dean. It starts to feel like the moral of the story is things go bad without Dean, lol!

because he was sure that's what Dean (and John) would do.

Worlds of yes to that! He told Dean he'd have to change himself into Dean in order to live without him, but I think poor Sam misunderstood Dean, through no fault of his own. Dean only showed Sam one side of himself.

Me, I have the last scene of the show in my head. I'd love it if they did it the way I see it: last scene, they're in a field of grass, laying down and staring up at the sky, the camera pans back and there's nothing but grass for miles and miles, just them, the Impala and nothing else. Their own private heaven. :)

[tabaqui]

...the camera pans back and there's nothing but grass for miles and miles, just them, the Impala and nothing else. Their own private heaven.

Oh. Yes. I would love that. :)